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The Delphi Podcast Host and GP of Delphi Ventures Tom Shaughnessy sits down with Jimmy McNelis, Co-founder and CEO at nft42, the company that built Nameless, a platform empowering brands and creators to launch professional, custom NFT projects in a completely visual way with zero code.

Episode Highlights

The Delphi Podcast Host and GP of Delphi Ventures Tom Shaughnessy sits down with Jimmy McNelis, Co-founder and CEO at nft42, the company that built Nameless, a platform empowering brands and creators to launch professional, custom NFT projects in a completely visual way with zero code. The two discuss other NFT platforms, partner networks, traditional brands and NFT experiences, and more.

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Show Notes:

(4:23) – First Question: Jimmy’s Background and how he got up to nft42 and Nameless.

(13:47) – How Jimmy got into CryptoKitties.

(19:42) – Goal of Nameless / what Jimmy’s trying to do differently / Nameless’ target market.

(26:58) – Minting an NFT on Nameless vs OpenSea.

(28:47) – How the partner program works.

(36:40) – Issues with current NFT space.

(42:58) – How Jimmy out innovates.

(44:21) – The most important forms of NFTs for businesses.

(46:27) – How far away we are from NFT’s being ubiquitous / does it matter or it is all going to be crypto native.

(51:56) – Jimmy’s thoughts on customer’s feedback.

(57:55) – Where to find Nameless.

(01:00:44) – Jimmy’s thoughts on brands and enterprises giving up control to the community.

Resources:


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Disclosures: This podcast is strictly informational and educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any tokens or securities or to make any financial decisions. Do not trade or invest in any project, tokens, or securities based upon this podcast episode. The host may personally own tokens that are mentioned on the podcast. Lets Talk Bitcoin is a distribution partner for the Chain Reaction Podcast, and our current show features paid sponsorships which may be featured at the start, middle, and/or the end of the episode. These sponsorships are for informational purposes only and are not a solicitation to use any product, service or token. Delphi’s transparency page can be viewed
here

 Music Attribution:



Interview Transcript:

Tom (00:00:02):

Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host, Tom Shaughnessy. I helped lead Delphi Ventures and I host this pod with a couple other co-hosts at Delphi. Today. I’m thrilled to have on Jimmy from NFT42, which is the parent company of Nameless. Jimmy, how’s it going?

Jimmy (00:00:18):

Going great, Tom. Thanks for having me.

Tom (00:00:19):

So, Jimmy, we’re just chatting. I’m jealous that you’re on with Jimmy because I prefer Tommy, but I know he’s looked unprofessional. When did you make the change on Jimmy, Jimmy?

Jimmy (00:00:28):

Yeah, so my name is, my formal name is James. And I was always embarrassed when I was a kid in elementary school and stuff when they call my name. The first day of school was the most dreadful time because they’d say the name I did not want people to call me. They’d be like, “James.” And I’d be like, “Jimmy.” I was Jimmy when I was a kid, and all my friends growing up knew me as Jimmy. And then when I was around 20 or 21, and I became a mortgage loan officer, my boss told me I should drop the Jimmy and go with Jim because it sounded more professional.

Jimmy (00:00:57):

So, I was that through 20 to about 42. And then, when I founded and NFT42. I went with Jimmy because it was cheaper to register Jimmy [inaudible 00:01:09] with the one than Jim [inaudible 00:01:12]. And but I like it. I like being back to Jimmy. So, thanks, Tom. You got to go back to Tom even.

Tom (00:01:17):

I do. And I didn’t know you were to mortgage, man. Back in middle school, high school, I used to sell leads for my dad during Power Hour for this mortgage company man. It was [crosstalk 00:01:26].

Jimmy (00:01:26):

Dude, my dad was a mortgage loan officer. My mom was a real estate agent. Most of my aunts are brokers. I was actually a real estate agent, a loan officer, and a settlement coordinator at a settlement company. So, I spent a lot of time in real estate before I got into technology. That’s what I did before I got into technology.

Tom (00:01:45):

That’s awesome. Well, Jimmy, you’re launching Nameless, which is part of NFT42, custom NFT projects, the whole nine yards. I want to get into the project, why we’ve asked you guys why we’re so excited. But your story is phenomenal. So, tell us about your story and how you got up to NFT42 and Nameless.

Jimmy (00:02:01):

Yeah, great. Strap in and hang on tight. It’s a bit of a long-winded story.

Tom (00:02:07):

It’s a good one.

Jimmy (00:02:08):

It’s a fun one, right? So, after I got done with that phase in real estate, which we just talked about a little bit, I was looking for the next thing. I started building websites for people. And as part of that, I was setting up either Gmail or this thing called SquirrelMail, which is an open source way to set up email on your custom domain. And everybody wanted Gmail. All the customers ended up wanting Gmail. And it was a free service to set up at that time and everything else, but I started offering that as a service for my web design.

Jimmy (00:02:43):

And at some point, I had a light bulb go off and I realized that that was going to be a much bigger opportunity than websites. There were already enough web developers, web designers in the world. But there were no people setting up. Google, Gmail. At that time, it was called Gmail for your domain. Eventually, that became Google Apps, and then eventually that became Google workplace. It’s very likely that anybody listening to this uses some form of that on a regular basis on the internet today.

Jimmy (00:03:10):

Anyways, so in 2007, I started doing that. And then in early 2008, Google set up the Google Enterprise partner program. And since I have been doing this, along with a few other slick companies throughout the world, they invited me as one of the first 30 partners to come in and pilot this partner program that they set up to sell Google Apps and set it up for organizations.

Jimmy (00:03:34):

So, I got in there and became a part of the program quickly, turned what was, just kind of a mom and pop business into something substantial. One of our first big deals was going in and working directly with Google in the city of Los Angeles, to for them to adopt Google Apps, and that was in 2009. Shortly after that, because I worked so closely with Google and some of their partners during that, I was invited on the Google partner advisory board, their enterprise partner advisory board. I remained there through the rest of my time in the ecosystem until 2013.

Jimmy (00:04:10):

And then, shortly after that, I ended up actually going and working for Google while I was running my company. I was what they call a Red Badge employee. So, I was a contractor, but I was there for a little bit over four years as a contractor that would go in and working on key projects to help build out the partner ecosystem. So, I had the benefit of not only working next to a multitude of different enterprise customers like Netflix, New York Times, City of Boston, City of LA, Kaplan University, and a multitude of others. But I also got to help from the outside and the inside, build the partner program and watch how it was built.

Jimmy (00:04:50):

So, we worked on things from like partner portals in different programs and partner enablement. I helped design the certification for Google Apps deployment specialists, helped write the test. Actually, it became number 14…

Tom (00:05:06):

Oh, that’s awesome for those who watched the video.

Jimmy (00:05:08):

… Yeah, 14 certified Google Apps certified deployment specialist. I don’t know if it’s cheating, because we helped write the test. There was a lot of questions, though. So, we didn’t write all the questions.

Jimmy (00:05:18):

And then at the end of that, in 2013, I sold my business. I worked for Google for a little while longer. The last thing I did there was worked on their business transformation strategy in helping design and develop that. And business transformation is basic digital transformation. Business transformation is basically adopting new technology into your organization to improve your existing processes or to create new business opportunities and processes.

Jimmy (00:05:41):

So, while a lot of customers would adopt Google Apps, which is like the Gmail and the Docs and Google meet, they wouldn’t necessarily be moving their cloud infrastructure over initially to Google Cloud. But in 2013, that became a big focus of business transformation and figuring out how to get their different workflows and things in there. So that was like the last thing I worked on. I decided I did not want to go full time at Google.

Jimmy (00:06:03):

My previous organization, Dido, we were very, very startup centric. Even though we were seven years old, we still work very hard. Got shit done was the culture there. We had 85% resource utilization that are consultancy, so it was like extremely high. Google, I felt like a little bit more of a cog in the machine and a little less, less effective. And that’s just not how I like to operate. So I exited that. And the importance of all this will come back later, I exited that.

Jimmy (00:06:33):

And then I always wanted a cabin in the woods. So, I went and bought a home in Lake Tahoe and Truckee, and I lived there for about four and a half years. During that time, I got a dog and I love him. I worked on my house, went snowboarding, just traveled, enjoyed myself basically. Trying to figure out and find that next thing because I wasn’t satisfied with where I left things off. But I basically felt I could find the next thing and do it again.

Jimmy (00:07:04):

And I was aware of a theory, I remember getting the email for the ICO and stuff, but I bought Legos instead, and I kind of regret that one. But anyways, 2017, I was feeling pretty lost. And I didn’t think I was going to find that next thing and I didn’t know what I was going to do, and I was pretty bored. I’d watched every movie and TV show. And I have done a lot of improvements in my home and walked a lot with my dog.

Jimmy (00:07:30):

So, I decided to hit the Appalachian Trail. I jumped on the Appalachian Trail in February. And then by April or May, I was several hundred miles up the trail. And I was speaking to just a guy who was walking next to me that day. And he was telling me he was making money walking along the trail. And I said, “How are you doing that?” He said, “I’m mining Bitcoins.”

Jimmy (00:07:53):

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Light bulbs start going off. I’m like, “Oh, gosh, computers can work for you. What am I doing?” And so, I pretty quickly lost focus on the trail, that was in my mind. I had been looking for this thing for years…

Tom (00:08:10):

Got a new trail map.

Jimmy (00:08:11):

Found me on the trail, I got off the trail. I got distracted by a very lovely and beautiful woman for a few months. And then, when that ended and the haze cleared, I had remembered what I was supposed to be doing. And I went out and built my first Ethereum mining rig. And I ended up building six more shortly after that. They ended up being named after the different characters. It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia. So, Dennis was my first. Sweet Dee was always my best miner. In any case, so I did that. And then we’re somewhere around the end of November now and Cryptokitties…

Tom (00:08:50):

Jim, one quick question before we get into Cryptokitties. If you were to, and it’s funny, you found crypto on the Appalachian Trail. Everyone thinks you have to be in these forums in tech and the whole nine yards. But more of a transition question for a CEO and a founder, if you were to found that guy in the Appalachian Trail a week after you left Google, would you be ready to make the jump full time on crypto or did you need that break?

Jimmy (00:09:12):

No, I needed that break. So, I was very aware of crypto for its worth. I was aware of Mt. Gox. I actually was not a believer. I thought that there’s no way that they can guarantee that all of this is accounted for and that it was hackable. I did not understand the technology completely. I had mined, I believe, I have mined some Bitcoin in my browser at one point. I swear it was Coinbase a place to mine Bitcoin before it was actually a wallet. In any case, this is like 2011 or something. I did. I had 0.2 BTC at one point, wrote it off. When I looked two years later, I couldn’t find the browser.

Jimmy (00:09:50):

No, the answer is no. I would not have been ready. The technology wasn’t ready. What was really interesting is that when he told me the price of bitcoin alongside of what he was mining, because I was aware when Mt. Gox, I had in my mind somewhere like 450 or 400 or $600, right? Somewhere in that range. It was in the hundreds of dollars, the mid hundreds. He told me at that time that Bitcoin, it was 4000 or something dollars, and I was like, holy shit. He was mining Bitcoin and it was worth X. And whatever X was, it was like 10 to 20x. What I was aware it was worth the last time I had looked, and I realized that this was still here. I had been ignoring it, and other people were paying attention to it.

Jimmy (00:10:40):

And what I’m always looking for is cutting edge like Google Apps was brand new. I had been a beta user of Gmail myself. On Xbox, I was an Xbox Live beta user. There was two games Mech Assault and MotoGP, I think. I always look for that Bleeding Edge. It was two bleeding edge in 2011, 2012, 2013. Maybe, I probably should have gotten into it in like 2014 or 15. But I didn’t, and luckily, I didn’t because I think that I was meant to discover NFT’s and not like cryptocurrency. I did spend a few months into these Altcoins and everything else when I started mining. I dove down deep. I dove deep into all of it. I was bored of it a couple months. I think it’s like

Tom (00:11:25):

I mean, it’s a good segue to CryptoKitties. So, I mean, you’re on the trail, you find crypto again. I mean, you found it earlier but [crosstalk 00:11:33].

Jimmy (00:11:36):

Yeah.

Tom (00:11:36):

And how did you get to CryptoKitties?

Jimmy (00:11:38):

Yeah. I had a little bit of a theory. I have no idea what to do with it yet. But I started mining it and I thought it was pretty cool that my machines had made money. I wanted to spend it. I like spending money. And my cat, so I live in Lake Tahoe, we get a lot of snow in the winter. February, we would get 20 plus feet of snow. But this December, we got a kind of early snow. It doesn’t really snow a ton before in the December January timeframe, but there was a big snowstorm.

Jimmy (00:12:09):

My cat would spend nights outside but not usually with a snowstorm. She had been gone for 24 hours. She hadn’t come back. There was like a foot of snow on the ground. And I was like, “Oh man, my cat’s gone.” And so, I was like, “Okay.” I heard this thing called CryptoKitties. I’m going to go get one. And I went and got a CryptoKitty a Gen 16 which is pretty low on the totem pole as far as a good cat and I paid way too much for it, I forget what I paid for it. [inaudible 00:12:36] was crazy. It was so hard to get a CryptoKitty. [crosstalk 00:12:38] It killed the network.

Tom (00:12:40):

Etheruem’s network was maxed out at that point, yeah.

Jimmy (00:12:42):

Yeah, I’d like to look and see how many transactions failed before I got one. I haven’t gone back and done that before. I know I bought it on December 5. But I haven’t looked to see how many times I tried before and after because I kept trying to get one and I couldn’t. Finally, it was like, “I’m just going to try to get this really crappy that no one wants.”

Jimmy (00:12:58):

Anyways, the cat did come back two weeks later. But that was, when I got that cat, I realized that people were creating these from other things they own. So, I was like, “If I can just get two cats and I can breed these two cats together, I can make something that’s potentially worth more.” And then I looked and I realized you had to have a certain type of cat in order to sell it for more, so you needed like a random outcome. And I didn’t understand the system. So, I kind of, I didn’t really ignore it for a couple of weeks, but I put it in the back burner. I think I bought a couple more cats before Christmas to get to people as gifts because I was like, “This is what I’m into now.” So, I tried to evangelize it, spread it that way.

Jimmy (00:13:35):

And then I was still doing the mining and the Altcoins during that whole bull run in December. And then I guess Kai had solved the genome for CryptoKitties, [Kai Ghani Dayiv 00:13:48], he is an advisor of ours now. But I didn’t know him at that time. He basically came up with it’s called Kai code and he solved the riddle of what the genetics are for CryptoKitties. That allows you to then use probabilities and breeding and everything else.

Jimmy (00:14:04):

So when I came back to take another stab at it, now there was actually this genome and everything else that was understood. And I found the Discord. I hadn’t found that in December when I first purchased my CryptoKitty, so I had no idea about the community. I’m not a Twitter person at that time. I had a Twitter account from 2008, but I didn’t use it, wasn’t a fan. And then, I finally, I think the moment that sticks out was February 14 Valentine’s Day 2018. I think I probably joined the CryptoKitty server a couple of days before that, maybe the week prior.

Jimmy (00:14:40):

And there was something called the Valentine’s Whale that came in. And what that was, is someone wrote a script to buy any, they didn’t write a good script. Any Gen zero crypto kitty they were buying for 1.5 ETH. So, if you listed one for 1.5 ETH, that bot would buy. It was programmed poorly. They wanted to buy up to 1.5 ETH. But if you listed one per 1.5, the bot will buy it. So, I remember praying it was in that server in the Discord that day and I bought my first gen zero and I coveted it. I didn’t want to sell it even though I could have doubled my money and kept doing what he was doing where he was buying the cheap ones, and relisting them for 1.5, you can sell them to the bot.

Jimmy (00:15:21):

So that’s Pranks Day where he went from a pulp to a whale. He basically had $600 in the game, and from that day forward was always funded to do whatever pranksy things he wanted to do. But that day was really exciting for a lot of the community because there was a lot of activity. A lot of people saw some potential that there was going to be more whales like this. There was all this excitement over Asia launch. It was the early days of CryptoKitties, and there was a lot of, even though it’s completely dead right now, it was an exciting time. CryptoKitties introduced, everybody that’s building right now that’s been around and is building serious projects, most of them came out of the CryptoKitties community.

Jimmy (00:16:05):

A lot of people that I know from three years ago in that server are today project leaders and things like that. It was a technical experience, breeding kitties and figuring out probabilities. There’s a lot of math involved. There’s a lot of complexity involved. There’s money involved. There’s speculation. I mean, so that project really sparked the interest in a big way. I’m not sure if it was just CryptoPunks have already been out. I missed the claim period. I was just coming off the trail when that happened. I wasn’t even aware of them. But that was just you go in and claim some punks and you sell it.

Jimmy (00:16:41):

CryptoKitties is actually composable NFTs. You can make new NFTs out of them. So, this was the right project for me to grasp onto and for these other people to grasp onto. It’s being able to create new value out of things and that NFT’s are more than just a picture of something. I think it was really just a magical moment, becoming an NFT into the blockchain space almost the same time that NFT’s were brought into the space.

Tom (00:17:07):

It’s incredible, man. Now, it’s a killer story. Because you were here for, I mean, first of all, you’re early on a lot of stuff, which is cool, right? Early on Google, Xbox, CryptoKitties. A lot of the stuff shows that you have an insane interest in new things and you dive in deep, which I love. The CryptoKitties fiasco is, I mean, not really a fiasco. It was fun, right? People kind of broke Ethereum in a way, right? Gas went through the roof years ago and this was before all the scaling tech and that spawned a zillion projects.

Tom (00:17:35):

So, let’s dive into Nameless itself. Through your history with Encrypto and CryptoKitties, what’s the goal of Nameless, the project? And what are you trying to do differently? What’s the focus? Who’s the target market? Who’s the customer? Let’s really unpack Nameless here.

Jimmy (00:17:50):

Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I’m not sure anybody’s ever asked that before either. It’s funny because where we started is not where we’re now going and aiming what we came out with it. And so, Nameless was named earlier this year. Prior to that, we were calling it InfiNFT, which has some relation to Delphi in some ways, right? You guys have the InfiNFT fund now.

Jimmy (00:18:13):

So, we had InfiNFT, we put that out on the market, because there was no minting solution that addressed on chain metadata or was putting images on any persistent storage solutions. We were the first to use Arweave for NFT’s. And we put royalties on chain first, even though those royalties aren’t being respected by marketplaces, we wanted to get the concept out there in the wild so that it can be understood that this is possible. So, we put all the metadata on a theory and we put all the images on Arweave and we made sure that there’s a royalty attached to it.

Jimmy (00:18:46):

That was the first, we built that for artists to be able to preserve their data forever, basically. That’s the initial reason that Nameless existed. Now, it’s kind of changed a little bit because we went through a high gas period and on chain stuff was expensive, and there wasn’t much activity there. We weren’t promoting it, because I didn’t want to have people spending a lot of money on taking and putting what may or may not be valuable on chain, right? Not all these artists are going to make it.

Jimmy (00:19:16):

So, when we started in January with the Outlier Ventures accelerator, they told us we were basically building Shopify for NFT’s when they looked at what we had and what we could make out of it. That was the pitch. And so, we started going down that direction. And to me, Shopify NFTs is like, to me, could be different to somebody else. It’s easy to deploy front end marketplace solution for any creator to come in and create and make NFT’s, which is really the right direction and still where Nameless is going.

Jimmy (00:19:51):

But I also started speaking to a lot of enterprise level customers and bigger brands that were exploring the NFT space. And I’ve had the benefit of doing that through some of my investor network. We get into closing around in February, with some high-profile investors who have really great networks and own some really big businesses that I’m able to speak to and understand what they’re thinking about NFTs. And I was really surprised over March to June timeframe, how many big businesses I spoke to about NFT’s.

Jimmy (00:20:27):

And that really made me rethink our approach and strategy because what we were building they could use, but they really need things that are more robust and complete than a just a one click no code, deployable marketplace. It’s not we’re going to be fitting circles into square holes here, circle pegs into square holes. In any case, I forced us to take a step back and re-evaluate how we were going to go about coming to market based on this information.

Jimmy (00:20:57):

We’ve launched VeeFriends as well, I think that’s definitely worth mentioning. VeeFriends was a pinnacle moment for us because we pulled off such a great project. Gary was an amazing partner to work with on this, onboard, and a ton of new people in NFT’s brought them into the space, showed how it’s done, made NFts that provide access as well. It didn’t just do a personal profile picture collection. We learned a ton because this was such a high profile and big project. And all of the knowledge that we gained through that, through working with Sotheby’s on natively digital auction, through working with Pranksy on NFT boxes [inaudible 00:21:33]. We met a lot of stuff that we learned along the way.

Jimmy (00:21:35):

And I felt like it was going to be a mistake to continue to move forward with the plan that we had made six months ago, versus actually taking a look at what we had. We had over a thousand leads come in just from VeeFriends alone, we’ve done no marketing.

Jimmy (00:21:50):

So, how do we address all those leads and not 60% of them? Because at first, I was, “Let’s just make sure we can get 60%, then we’re doing great.” And then I just started to feel really bad about that. Because I was like, “Man, what about this other 40% that are actually really interesting platforms and marketplaces and integrations. That’s pretty interesting.” And I used to do this sort of stuff at Google.

Jimmy (00:22:11):

Anyways, so I said, “Let’s take a step back. Let’s think about this.” I asked our CTO part, I said, “Can we just build an API first, and then build this no code deployable marketplace on top of it, right?” And then we’ll just use our API that anybody else can use. Because that way, we’re eating our own dog food. Part of working at Google, you learn to eat your own dog food. And what that means in the tech or industry or even in any creative space where you’re making new things is, use the stuff that you make, you eat your own dog food. If you’re making dog food, you better eat your dog food and make sure it tastes good.

Jimmy (00:22:45):

So, I wanted a dog food off of our API to build solutions. And where we’re at right now, in the phase of our business, we’re still very young, we’re a growing startup, we have limited resources. So obviously, we’re increasing those resources, but it’s always a fight to get more resources to do the things you want to do. So, Bart said, “Look, great plan. We’re never going to get to building our own, no code, deployable marketplace, if we take initially if we take this approach. Because when we build the API, we’re going to have to keep building API and supporting the API. And let’s just get partners to build a no code deployable marketplace on top of our API.”

Jimmy (00:23:23):

And I was like, “You know what, that’s actually a great idea. Let’s do that.” And I realized, as I’m looking through our leads, that there’s several potential partners that could do that for us. And so, we reached out to one that we’ve been working with on some other things and ask them if they would be an alpha partner to do that no code deployable marketplace solution on our API. And they said, “Yes, we’d love to.” So, we have that solution that we were initially building through a partner. And really, this is the approach is we’re building an API. It is not serviceable by an artist who has no development experience or anything like that. You do need to have some development capabilities. What we’re trying to do is extract as much of the web three development capabilities from the process as possible and this require really competent web two developers to be able to come in and interact with our API.

Jimmy (00:24:13):

Right now, if people start to understand some web three stuff, obviously, but that’s the path we’re going down is substract the web three from this process to make it easy to integrate NFT’s directly into any experience, be it a game, a mobile app, a website, an internal process, employee badges and IDs. Anything that anybody wants to build, that has technical capabilities, we’ll be able to use and integrate NFTs into their system, will be able to use our API to do so in a familiar way. And then people who want those solutions that are not easy and off the shelf partners can build this off the shelf solutions for us.

Tom (00:24:53):

Jimmy, that’s incredible. I understand the focus and how you’re using what made Google successful in your own strategy, right? So that’s interesting. Can you kind of just walk us through an example, just for those that might be new to NFT’s new to Nameless, all the players in here? Let’s say, I’ll let you pick the major brand. But if I’m a major brand, why would I go with nameless versus, say, minting an NFT on OpenSea and just dropping in on the marketplace?

Jimmy (00:25:22):

Oh, that’s a great question. I mean, there’s a variety of reasons why you probably want to own your own experience. In the end, I mean, if you’re a big brand, as soon as you do something on a platform that is out in front, like OpenSea, or something like that, you’re promoting that brand indirectly or directly, you’re also putting yourself next to other entities that may not meet the quality standards that you would expect for your brand. There may be dick pics or something like that right next to your really high quality NFT. And you can’t avoid that all together and be centralized, but it’s that where you want your primary sale taking place? The quality of the token itself…

Tom (00:26:01):

Jimmy, the other question, sorry to cut you off. But I mean, brands on Twitter, and they’re like, “Hey, OpenSea, give me that blue checkmark.” But using your platform, the blue checkmark is automatically implied when you visit a provider’s website because you know you’re shopping their brand, their NFTs.

Jimmy (00:26:17):

Right. Exactly. On OpenSea, the other day, I onboard friends all the time in NFTs and one of my friends, she bought something a mines project NFT and she was super excited about it. And she got it and then it turned out she bought a scam. Someone did two s’s on the end and tricked her. They did a pretty good job spoofing it all. Those sorts of problems disappear when you’re buying directly from cbs.com or whatever. TIME is now doing NFT’s. If you go to time.com, you know you’re not getting a fake time NFT. You’re absolutely right. That’s a big aspect of it as well.

Tom (00:26:54):

Now Jimmy, how exactly does the partner program work? Nameless is the engine for how the NFTs are minted, how the experience happens. You have providers and that might focus on sports or tech or enterprise sales. Do they then go to these brands and say, “Hey, we’re going to build the experience for you.” And they’re not even going to bring up Nameless. You guys are just going to be the engine.

Jimmy (00:27:16):

I think that it’ll be to their advantage to bring up Nameless, but they certainly don’t have to, that we want to be underneath. Nameless is not as a name that is meant to have meaning. We definitely want to be underneath. We want to be Nameless. We want to provide the NFT issuance layer of the space and of the metaverse.

Jimmy (00:27:39):

There’s a variety of ways that these partner engagements can work. One thing that I’ve realized is that we’re going to be engaged in some of these sales with partners. There’re big customers that are going to be going out and pitching and they’re going to need to have the technical understanding that we can provide. And so that’s one thing that I’m already helping with on some of the high-profile customers, going out and helping aid them.

Jimmy (00:28:00):

But really what I think is going to happen here, there’s several different types of partners. I’ll name a few of them, not all of them. But we have agency partners. We have NFT agencies, this is a new thing that’s spinning up. When web design came online, we started to have web design agencies. Now we’re going to have NFTs. And those are very much like web design shops of yesteryear, except for now focusing on NFTs as well, because you still need to build a website in many cases for the experience. You could sell directly on the OpenSea. The good ones will have the full experience. So, we have NFT agencies, those are partner of ours. They should be working on marketing, charitable things, celebrities, high profile marketing campaigns with brands, athletes, things like that.

Jimmy (00:28:45):

Then you have your marketplace partners. Those are more like a vertical focused marketplaces. A personal profile picture collection could be a marketplace type partner, because they have a marketplace. They could be a partner that’s not serving other customers, but just themselves. So, you have customers, they’re going to build their own direct solutions. And then others that will do business to consumer solutions directly to consumers. And those could also be like the one click code, deployable marketplaces where an artist can come in and create their collection and deploy it, that will be nameless underneath, but other dozens and hundreds of marketplace solutions eventually.

Jimmy (00:29:21):

And then the part that gets me pretty excited is the integration partners. And that is all the existing technology partners that are already engaged with all of the enterprise businesses throughout the world. You have Amazon, Salesforce, Microsoft, Google, Shopify. These customers, these businesses want to work with existing partners. They like to single source as much of their technology as possible. When a business starts to explore this technology, typically what will happen is one of the first things like the CTO or CIO, or whomever CMO is looking to understand how to integrate NFT’s into their organization, they’re going to ask their existing technology provider. So, we’re going to part onboard as many of those as possible, so that we have a good… And we’re going to mirror our partner ecosystem to be familiar in a way that to them is familiar to these partners, so that they know how to interact with our partner enablement team. It’s all familiar process. The resale commissions are similar. We have good competitive margins on their ability to resell our services. It’s transparent.

Jimmy (00:30:43):

So, if they want to represent that they have a solution that they’ve developed themselves, they don’t have to put us out in front, do all of our marketing for us, their own solution. And then just making sure we’re providing them with the resources necessary to pull that off. So really building out this partner ecosystem and the API are the two main things that we’re doing with Nameless for the next nine months.

Tom (00:31:04):

Now. That’s, that’s incredible, Jimmy. I think people, including myself have trouble or maybe this is a knee thing, but I always have trouble grasping middleware, right? Because it exists, people build on top of it, or even the platform itself, because people, they vibe, they understand the app lab. They understand Snapchat, Netflix. They don’t understand serverless compute, Kubernetes and AWS, or Google Compute.

Tom (00:31:26):

For you, you’re building an engine here, and it kind of feels pretty similar to the Red Hat Linux model, in a sense, but you’re not Red Hat. The Red Hat would be your partners, I’m guessing. Would that be a fair comparison?

Jimmy (00:31:41):

Yeah, I mean, I don’t know how to compare this directly to something that already exists, right? Because we’re basically creating ways for people. I mean, it’s a factory for digital goods, right? And you can make your own factory. We give you the tools to make your own factory and what that factory makes and what the output is. So, I don’t really know how to fully analogize it against an existing business, but it’s a technology that is going to be used prevalently across everything is my belief here.

Jimmy (00:32:23):

And so, everybody’s going to need solutions for it. And not everybody likes to use WordPress, a lot of people use WordPress, don’t get me wrong. But not everyone can get to use WordPress without a partner cell. And then, not everybody wants to use Squarespace. But again, you can use Squarespace. We’re basically trying to eventually make it extremely easy for anybody to deploy NFTs. The tricky part here is we’re trying to do that through partners.

Jimmy (00:32:54):

One of the things, for better or worse is I did come to the partner ecosystem at Google as a partner, and not as just building it, so I have a different perspective as a partner. And I’m always going to have a partner’s best interests in mind as well as ours. So, I want to understand and be empathetic to partners. And one thing that bothered me about the Google model is they would protect the really valuable customers and resources and feel like they had to do it themselves, right? And I get it, I totally get it. But it didn’t enable the partner network in the way that it could have if they relied on partners.

Jimmy (00:33:32):

So, for better or worse, we are going to rely on partners to be are the ones who spread the Nameless virus, right? We will help them. We will evangelize alongside of them. We’re going to give them all the support necessary, but we are going to go through partners. If somebody right now came to us and did not have a technology solution, they didn’t have the technical capability to handle this, we have a partner that we will plug them into that will be able to build that out with them. We will not do it directly with them. Because we’re going to focus on enabling the partners and allowing them to capture revenue from this as well and not just us.

Tom (00:34:08):

Jimmy, I love the approach. I mean, you’re basically, you’re allowing brands and companies, corporations to get into the digital world owning an NFT experience beyond minting, but you’re allowing them to do it where they want instead of just on a marketplace. And you’re promoting that growth through expert partners who not only understand crypto where a lot of enterprises don’t. So you have to rely on them to be experts. You have the partner program to educate them.

Tom (00:34:35):

But you have specific partners who will be good with different brands and different types of experiences. So, I love the strategy. I mean, the other side though of this is just the issues you see with the NFT space itself, right? You’re at the forefront of bringing corporations in and as you and I know, whenever I see enterprises on a project, red flags go up. I think permission blockchains. I think cash grabs, I think all that stuff.

Tom (00:34:59):

But you’re in a position where you’re actually bringing real crypto experiences to these enterprises and brands. What do you think is wrong with the NFT space, whether it’s the metadata, where these live, the chains? And how are you addressing that with Nameless?

Jimmy (00:35:13):

Yeah, well, yeah, I want to say, first of all, one of the things that I’ve been pleasantly surprised by these conversations I have been having at the top level of these large organizations, they all understand on chain more than the NFT community does. Fundamentally, they get it. Because they don’t want us, they don’t want the liability of storing data. That’s one of the things that this solves. You do some zero knowledge proof stuffs, a little bit of magic, and all of a sudden, no more data breaches.

Tom (00:35:42):

You’re right. Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s interesting.

Jimmy (00:35:45):

Actually, when I have offered the alternative of, if you wanted to do this not our way, and you do it this way, they’d be like, “Why would we not want to put it on chain?” Literally, I’m like, “I love you. I love you. Thank you.” So that’s the thing, first and foremost is that people are going to settle for what they can get. And cost is always a factor and things like that. But I think one of the neat things is that enterprise takes a look at the space. They take a look in a different way than like an NFT collector would.

Jimmy (00:36:22):

So, what may look, glitz and glamor and great to an NFT collector may not look the same to a CTO that’s taking a look at the technology and trying to understand what’s going on. So that’s one thing that I think is important in a differentiator as to while, I now forgot question, Tom.

Tom (00:36:41):

No, it’s a good answer. I mean, you’re talking about the difference between CTOs enterprise and collectors. But I guess my specific question was, what do you think is wrong with the NFT space?

Jimmy (00:36:51):

Yeah, sorry, yeah, I knew it was something there, I just couldn’t get back to it. There’s a really severe lack of innovation, not only by token, minting platforms, and all of these marketplace solutions that are coming out, but even by projects themselves. We are seeing some innovation on some fronts. But if you look closer, you’ll notice that a lot of those innovations have already occurred year and a half ago or more. They’re just now being marketed correctly by a project.

Jimmy (00:37:22):

CryptoKitties, and then Axie Infinity are two NFT projects that incorporated some complex breeding elements into the NFT collection themselves. Nowadays, it’s very typical to see a 10,000 profile picture project launch, and that’s considered NFT. And then those are the projects themselves, where people are developing their own contracts and actually taking the time to do that. When you look at marketplaces and the options where people have to deploy today, really, it’s a mixed bag. You either have to get into a curated marketplace, and maybe you’ll be missing a decent NFT, SuperRare for example or KnownOrigin, MakersPlace these all make pretty good NFT’s. Actually, MakersPlace might make ERC 20 tokens still, so let’s not call them good. Let’s just call them something.

Tom (00:38:15):

It’s definitely okay.

Jimmy (00:38:16):

Yeah, I mean, for what it’s worth, that’s not a horrible thing. It exists. It’s not the best, it’s not ideal, but they do actually store information on chain and stuff, or at least IPFS. So, any of those marketplaces are good, Nifty Gateway. I know they care to some extent, and take some efforts to do that. But not everybody can get there.

Tom (00:38:33):

But these are all very crypto native destinations, though, these aren’t destinations for major brands.

Jimmy (00:38:41):

Well, but hold on. So, then you have OpenSea, shared storefront. We’ve started to see, there’s not really a lot of places for major brands to go. I mean, and then the ones that do have places to go, we just saw Space Jam did something on, was it Nifty’s? And that’s Palm underneath of it. I mean, these are not decided. I don’t know the way to put it here. But there’s a lot of experimentation going on there still. But even those experiments, what does Nifty and Palms focus? They want to reduce the carbon footprint and they care about the environment, which is great, by the way. I’m not trying to dog on that.

Jimmy (00:39:21):

But I think we’re solving that fundamentally with ETH 2.0 and some other things and other directions. I’m not really, I don’t think it’s NFT’s place to solve that. What they’ve actually done is just place entities on an undetermined blockchain that may or may not be successful in the future, whereas Ethereum is pretty much destined to succeed at this point, as far as storage and proof of ownership layer.

Jimmy (00:39:45):

A lot of the innovation is taking place on layer two because everybody was scared of high gas and Polygon is proving to be a good network. But I don’t really feel there’s actually much innovation that’s taking place. It’s just people started developing things on a clone network that uses a slightly less secure form of confirming blocks. And that can also be subject to the same network effects and traffic if it becomes too popular. So, it’s offloading traffic to a place that seems really low cost and everything else. But as soon as the network gets busy, then you have the same problems that you had over on the first network.

Jimmy (00:40:21):

And then, those people have focused on bridging NFT collections, because they realize that the ones they’re creating over here lower value, they’ve done it intentionally for some reason. So, they want to let you bring your NFT over to the main net. But when you do that, now you have two separate contracts and some entities over here and some over here. And yeah, there’s some contract that bridges up, but the reality is, if you look here, you have 321 tokens, you look here you have 9600 and whatever. It’s a now an incomplete collection.

Jimmy (00:40:52):

Anyways, I just don’t think anybody’s done any of the right shit as far as developing innovation in the space. I think there are a couple shops out there, they are doing good things. I think if you look at like Manifold XYZ, they’re making really good contracts, they put stuff on chain, they’re doing experiments.

Jimmy (00:41:09):

Ox Deadbeef is an artist in the space who has played around a lot more. I don’t know the name of the company, but like Pulsquares and [inaudible 00:41:18]. There are some people doing some of these stuff, but none of these are platform plays. They’re all individual projects or consultancies, platform. There’s no platform out there where you can launch an excellent NFT period. There just isn’t.

Tom (00:41:34):

I mean, that’s related to my next question. There’s so much funding going on space. OpenSea just raised 100 million bucks yesterday. DraftKings today announced their marketplace. I still got to read that PR.

Jimmy (00:41:46):

They did the Tom Brady autograph platform.

Tom (00:41:50):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I mean, that’s incredible work. I mean, the other question, though, is how do you out innovate against them? If OpenSea woke up tomorrow and said, “Hey, we want to crush Jim and Jimmy of Nameless. Let’s throw 10 million bucks at this.” Do you think they’ll be able to because it just doesn’t feel like a focus for major brands just don’t feel like a focus for the incumbents, right?

Jimmy (00:42:11):

What my opinion on that is this, what is OpenSea the best at being a marketplace? Should they be focusing on trying to make better NFTs than Nameless? I don’t think so. They can’t be the best at that. We can be the best at that. But they can’t be the best at that and be the best to be in a marketplace.

Tom (00:42:31):

So, OpenSea isn’t a competitor. I mean, if anything, they can just…

Jimmy (00:42:34):

hopefully, eventually they’re a customer, and they realize that we should be doing the minty form. I’ll take them a little while longer. They’re going to continue to try to make it easier for people to come on to the NFT space, and I don’t blame them for that at all. I’d say right now our competitors are OpenSea and Rarible. I don’t consider anybody else out there as really a competitor or any of them.

Tom (00:42:55):

Yeah, I agree on those. And the other question for you, to cut down to the core of what you’re doing, what do you think are the most important forms of NFTs for, I guess the space in businesses. We have Collectibles. We have Axis. We have Land. There’re so many different forms. There’s Art, there’s NBA top shots. How do you dissect this? If Rolls Royce came to you and said we want to have tea? What do you say?

Jimmy (00:43:20):

Well, I mean, there’s a lot to that.

Tom (00:43:22):

There’s a lot there, yeah.

Jimmy (00:43:25):

No, it’s okay. All the things you mentioned, I think of is the right now. It’s whatever people understand NFT’s are. The NFTs are anything quite literally. There’re any sort of digital record or digital asset or digital good. There’s so many of these things we use in our lives today that exist in semi digital form that can become entities. My favorite one is probably identity. I think identity is going to be a driving use case for NFTs anywhere from country passport all the way down to gym membership and everything in between. In all different levels of access control and ownership and we’ve seen in management and everything else. Zero knowledge proofs built in all those layers.

Jimmy (00:44:11):

But if you think about a corporation, I don’t know. Culture is important in a company. What if right now when you get on boarded into your company, you get to pick out a profile picture, that’s an NFT and then that is your access to different things. There’re profile pictures, I mentioned like records management, that’s an area that I don’t think anybody’s really thinking too much about yet.

Jimmy (00:44:39):

Gosh, every virtual item in a game, I think people are thinking about Axis now and everything else. But think about how many triple A games are out there right now that have micro economies built in where you get skins and things like that. Fortnite is going to be humongous, Facebook horizons. There’s not any version of future I can imagine that doesn’t have NFT’s. It’s just a deep, deep part of every, like digital experience.

Tom (00:45:10):

Jimmy, how far away do you think we are? I have two questions for you on that. How far away do you think we are from NFT’s being ubiquitous? So, the US government coming to hopefully you guys and saying, “Hey, we want to put passports on Ethereum.” And two, do you think it even matters? Or do you think it’s all going to be crypto native? Or do you actually think stuff like passports driver’s licenses, like the real-world stuff will be NFT’s?

Jimmy (00:45:34):

I think all of it will be NFT’s. And I think the timeline is probably in the five to 10 year range for the passports.

Tom (00:45:42):

Yeah.

Jimmy (00:45:43):

First will come digital dollar. Right? That’ll be first, I think. And then will come, because I believe that passport could potentially live on whatever blockchain that dollar lives on, for example. There will be a government [crosstalk 00:45:59]. So, this is cool, though, right? One cool thing that blockchain does in general, stepping back from NFTs for a second is, a lot of public records these days are hard to access, and there’s a cost to access them coming from the real estate background, right? If you want to go pull a record, someone has to do work to do that, an employee…

Tom (00:46:18):

These title agencies, yeah everything.

Jimmy (00:46:21):

But even at the city or county level, a clerk has to go and pull that thing and there’s time and effort involved. And it’s not always easy for the public to access these things. Blockchains can provide a public access. You can have a privately controlled by government entities, blockchain has permission public access to pieces, or all of things depending on how you want to set that up. And then you have records management that can be publicly known and transparent. And then, NFTs layered in to all of that for all the assets stuff.

Jimmy (00:46:57):

And then blockchains provide disaster recovery. One of the big problems, there’s certain things that this technology layer solves that people don’t realize are more important. Not like, “Blockchain is scary so we can’t adopt it.” So, one story I can tell is, when I went into the city of LA to do this Google deployment with Google, one of the things that they told me that struck me is very, this is a very important thing I’ve never forgotten it, is that one of the IT guys there told me it didn’t matter if none of the employees like Google Apps. I was in there to get employees to like it and that was my job. And he’s like, “Jim, what you guys are doing is amazing. It’s great. But I want to explain something to you. None of these matters. We literally saved $100 million on disaster recovery by using this solution rather than going with some other solution. Like the disaster recovery element of Google’s solution was worth anything else than any other problems or anything else.”

Jimmy (00:48:07):

And this is a key point, because still today, a lot of counties and municipalities and states and other things don’t have proper disaster recovery in place. And what this means is if your computer network goes down, and you’re just get wiped out, or there’s an EMP or anything happens, your data gets corrupted. You need to have backups of it at other places. Regionally speaking, in the case of LA, they have earthquakes and things like that. So, disaster recovery is even more paramount.

Jimmy (00:48:33):

But the cost, if you have disaster recovery in place, that costs a lot. But if you don’t have it in place, you actually need it. And so, when you start to provide solutions that offer something that you actually need, people become more willing to accept some of the newer and riskier sides, perceived riskier sides of things. Like in LA’s case, the risk was moving off of the Lotus Notes on premise solution to moving to a Cloud solution. But the disaster recovery benefits outweighed that. Oh sorry, I just kind of ramped it up there.

Tom (00:49:07):

No, the discovery aspect is interesting. I mean, the other thing just to circle back, I mean, one of the things that I want to talk to you about is, I always ask you, what is the coolest new NFT use case? We obviously see them like Axie. We see Ember Sword Land. But the thing that I always like to bet on is not having to make that creativity bet, right? With Ethereum, you invest on Ethereum, because you know, somewhere out there, somebody is going to create a killer app on top right? With you guys, one of the reasons why we love doing batches because we don’t have to really make the bet that as good as your team is, we don’t have to make the bet that you’re going to come up with that killer use case, right? We’re betting that your customers and your partners around the world will figure that out for you.

Tom (00:49:54):

So, whether its real estate and making mortgage sales guy’s life easier, or whether it’s land or discovery recovery, I feel a bet on infrastructure or middleware in the NFT space is obviously less risky given, we don’t have to bet on you guys to figure out the killer use case, if that makes sense.

Jimmy (00:50:15):

Yeah. And that’s why I actually really like for what it’s worth this approach as well, because it allows us to scale our success based on our partner’s success. And we’re making a bet that a lot of people are going to get into NFT’s and a lot of technology providers are going to need a solution. And that’s what we’re trying to build. That is what we are building.

Tom (00:50:35):

Yeah, the infrastructure aspects is awesome. I hope I spoke quick there. But I hope I encapsulate that in the right way.

Jimmy (00:50:42):

Yeah.

Tom (00:50:42):

The other thing is, how open are you guys to feedback on a per customer basis? Or how much does a customer’s feedback play into the actual, your project itself?

Jimmy (00:50:55):

A lot. I mean, so much. That’s one of the benefits of working on some of these bespoke projects leading up to this point, and now working with alpha, and starting to get the beta partners ready for that next phase, is making sure that we have that feedback and have a full understanding of what we need to build. Because minting NFTs and selling NFTs, that’s actually the easy part. There’s a lot of stuff that goes on behind all that and infrastructure layers and different things, systems that we need to build out and to support that, and a lot of other third-party things that need to eventually work seamlessly in those experiences.

Jimmy (00:51:33):

We need wallet solutions. We need cash on ramp. We need a custody solution, we need the AML, KYC. We need a multitude of RNG, chain link RNG. We need to be able to plug all these things into it all. I mean, there’s a lot of pieces here that need to end up working really elegantly together in the end. Right now, those first two parts I mentioned. And then, I won’t mention some of the other parts that we’re doing yet, just to keep a little bit of the alpha.

Tom (00:52:05):

Keeps an alpha back.

Jimmy (00:52:08):

here’s a few API’s that we’re building initially, to make sure and to make it easy to facilitate people creating, maintain and selling NFT’s. And then from there, that’s the foundation. And we will expand the platform from there both through first parties, more additional API’s we introduced. I’m really excited because I’m not sure how familiar you are with Niftify, guys, but they’re doing, a similar approach in a different area of NFT’s.

Jimmy (00:52:38):

I’m starting to see some synergies where we can start to have some sort of alliance where a customer could come in and use a variety of solutions to build a really full and complete NFT. Not just on the primary part, which is really where we’re focused, right? We want to be on the issuance layer, the primary sale, then you start to plug in Niftify the things and you can build in this financial layer where you can do lending and leasing and all these exciting things. I think we’ll start to see leasing come out in the next year. It’s like a use case for NFTs, leasing out these assets, lending these assets.

Jimmy (00:53:14):

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And there’s still some things that need to be solved there. And the Niftify guys and some others are working on that. One of the other things, Tom, that I think people don’t realize is these are permissionless and trustless NFT’s we’re working with here. And people can take an ape in a crypto punk and say, “If you own an eight bit in a crypto pump, you can make eight dough pump.” And you can write a smart contract that would do that and create a new collection out of these things.

Jimmy (00:53:43):

And so, I think what we’re going to start to see and I really hope to see more of over the next year is composability of existing NFTs across projects in a non permission way where someone not related to any of these things, make something new, it’s as if you own these things, you could do this. I think we might be starting to see some examples of this. I saw a tweet today about auto glyphs are about to become on chain. You’re about to be able to make money off of them somehow. And I think it’s the Pulsquares guys that are doing something where you can create new work from your existing autoglyph. But this is a separate company using autoglyphs to make new things. I hope we start seeing a lot more of that.

Tom (00:54:24):

Okay. Composability in a real world facing NFTs can be super interesting too. The experiences that The NFT provides. You can mix that with another, you can sell it, you could lend it. That stuff can be really cool to your point.

Jimmy (00:54:37):

Yeah, I mean, I’m sure there’s better examples of this, what if you could buy four NFTs and that added up to four experiences in the city in New York. So that’s kind of a trick, right? And like so you sell. There’s a lot of different stuff there. And what if, I don’t know. I actually I’m really excited when I start to think about this. I guess, God, my team will kill me. We’re doing something right now that’s not exactly composability. But we’re taking advantage of the decentralized nature of the communities of these NFTs. And what we’re doing right now is we’re minting out the rest of our stars along with our community that are smart enough to be missing and alongside of us right now.

Jimmy (00:55:22):

We’re going for two to 3,000 to be able to basically allow, I won’t say which community but a community to go in and claim these NFTs. And so, we’re basically going to give away free NFTs to a new NFT community of new NFT owners. And we should have more holders per NFT profile collection than any other collection.

Tom (00:55:49):

It sounds like the new Airdrop.

Jimmy (00:55:52):

Exactly. Right. So, look, listen, what dogs did, what Apes did with dogs. You don’t have to be Apes to drop dogs on [inaudible 00:55:59]. You could be anybody and drop them there. So that’s what people are going to start to realize is that…

Tom (00:56:04):

Curation there is incredible. I mean, we’ve seen projects get really specific with airdrops based on usage based on where these users are based on their holdings. But NFT airdrops can be very curated and provide pretty cool experiences to your point.

Jimmy (00:56:17):

Yeah. So, I’m excited about that. Yeah.

Tom (00:56:20):

I won’t ask any more so your team doesn’t kill you.

Jimmy (00:56:21):

I know.

Tom (00:56:23):

Well, Jimmy, it’s been awesome having you on, man. I mean, we’re amped to back you because you’re an extremely passionate founder. You’re bringing NFTs to real brands and enterprises through experiences they own not just a marketplace, and you’re using a partner program of experts per segment to help build that out for you and kind of grow the Nameless engine based on feedback. So, I think what you’re building is awesome. Where could people learn more about Nameless, get involved if they’re a potential customer contact at that lead list?

Jimmy (00:56:53):

Yeah, I mean, I think, [email protected] is the email address. If you wanted to email us, there’s a form on nameless.io as well to reach out. You can find us on Twitter as well. I think it’s nameless underscore or something like that.

Tom (00:57:11):

Yeah, I’ll link to it in the show notes. It’s [inaudible 00:57:14], Jimmy, because you’re somebody that’s so in the weeds on crypto, but you’re bringing it to enterprises who don’t really know much about it. You’re in both worlds at the same time.

Jimmy (00:57:22):

I didn’t expect these worlds to be married. But it’s happened. And it happened sooner. I guess I did expect them eventually to be married, but it’s happened sooner than I expected it to. And I’ve just managed to put myself in a great position to be able to conceptualize and hopefully capitalize on this emerging opportunity. I mean, I think Tom, we’re all betting that NFT’s are going to be huge. That’s the bet. I think it’s an obvious bet to a lot of us. But it’s still an unsolved and unknown thing to a lot of this world.

Jimmy (00:57:54):

So, I just want to make sure that whatever we’re providing to the market, encourages people to like NFTs versus discouraging people. I kind of want to end on this point, if that’s okay. One thing I didn’t touch on is why I built Avastars and why any of these companies exist. And that’s because when I got into NFTs, and I spent tens and thousands of dollars eventually on CryptoKitties, and I eventually looked to see what I had bought. Look before you buy folks. When I eventually looked to see what I bought, I realized that the CryptoKitty does not live on the blockchain like I thought it does. Their pictures are not on the blockchain. The metadata is not on the blockchain and a little bit of me died inside because I thought that my CryptoKitties were on the blockchain.

Jimmy (00:58:42):

And so, what we create is something that will not disappoint users. We want to create something that no matter what, will live forever, if that’s the intention of the creator, and that owner can feel good about owning it and know when they look underneath the hood, it’s going to meet their imaginations, expectations, and not disappoint them like I was. Because I feel that’s the power of NFTs is this proof of ownership is persistence of data, the ability to own something that could be valuable for a really long time, that’s digital. And I just want to make sure that everything we’re doing fits those ideals of making sure that we are giving creators an opportunity to create something that can live forever.

Tom (00:59:28):

Now that emotional kind of dagger is basically, it sounds like the genesis of Nameless in a way.

Jimmy (00:59:33):

It is. It’s the genesis of NFT42 and everything we do.

Tom (00:59:37):

And one follow up question there. Do you think brands and enterprises are ready to give up that control? I mean, on Call of Duty, they’re never going to let me on a gun forever game to game? Do you think that they’re ready to give up that control to the community? Or do you think there’s a lot of education there?

Jimmy (00:59:53):

I think they need to be convinced, but I think once they understand the power of the decentralization here, that it’s actually better. And I mean, the example I’ll give is, if your Facebook, why should you allow your Facebook horizons wearables to be present in Fortnite’s Metaverse? And the answer is because they won’t see you if you don’t let them do that. And if somebody sees that over here at Fortnite, and they want that thing, they can either go buy it off of a marketplace anywhere in the Metaverse and Facebook can receive a royalty for that. They can get paid, even though they’ve never touched their network. Or this person goes over to Facebook horizons and decides to start buying items at Facebook horizons.

Jimmy (01:00:39):

This is the real world and everything’s mixed up in it. And there’s huge benefits to opening up here. I mean, I think that Walled Gardens are not going to work in the Metaverse. I think it’s all about, users are going to want to use the things they own other places. And I think in the long run, that consumers will reject brands that do not conform to letting them own the ship that they buy.

Tom (01:01:10):

On the brand’s NFTs, you go shopping at Shoprite and you see those little stickers, sustainably sourced organic whatever? Do you think these NFT’s are going to be metadata lives on Ethereum, powered by Nameless. How are people going to know?

Jimmy (01:01:30):

That’s a really great question. I don’t really know the answer to that yet.

Tom (01:01:34):

I guess if people are using you, they’ll know offhand. But it would be cool. I mean, it’s just powerful for the brand for the people.

Jimmy (01:01:40):

My hope really is that we force, first of all, I want the industry to adopt the same things that we’re doing because I want everybody’s experience with NFTs to be on parity, right? If you buy an NFT, it has these things, it’s stored on chain and do all that. It takes a long time to get there. That’s why I think going back to, I think people will want to promote the fact that their own Nameless even though we don’t require that in any way, is that I think it will be understood as a symbol of quality. And when you’re buying…

Tom (01:02:12):

A lot of time, in tax, too, I mean, if somebody messes with an NFT, that’s not on chain, I don’t really know the NFT attack vector as well. But I feel once somebody use another provider and it just gets hacked, or it’s standard, not legit, people will figure it out.

Jimmy (01:02:25):

Or like that data disappears, because it is on a central server and something happens. These examples will need to come out. A lot of people weren’t around when Additional went out of business. Do you remember Additional?

Tom (01:02:34):

Not really. No.

Jimmy (01:02:35):

So there was an iOS app that allowed artists to go in and create NFTs and basically users could go and claim them. But then this was when gas was like one. So, Additional is paying for all this but when gas spiked a little bit, their business model died because they were giving out free NFTs on a theorems network, which is tough to do as ERC-721. So, they closed it down, closed down their servers. You can still go find those. I think OpenSea actually preserved the information, but it’s still centrally served. And eventually one day, if it hasn’t already, will go away. And a lot of projects are like that, too.

Jimmy (01:03:08):

Even the ones that are stored on IPFS. It’s up to the IPFS nodes and network providers if they want to continue to host information that they’re not paying to have hosted. So, when you’re storing on IPFS, it’s not forever storage. It’s potentially forever and repairable storage. I don’t know about other collectors. I’m not downloading copies of my files to re upload the IPFS. They go away one day.

Tom (01:03:31):

I don’t think anyone is.

Jimmy (01:03:34):

Yeah. So, it’s the excuse that everybody gives. But what we do is we hash the IPFS. Because IPFS hashes are cool. But then we pin it to Arweave once and forever, and then we’re done.

Tom (01:03:45):

And Arweave has a model through their ecosystem, through that, you have 200-year storage. It’s forever basically.

Jimmy (01:03:52):

Yeah, we at least know that it’s going to be here a couple of lifetimes, right?

Tom (01:03:56):

Yeah.

Jimmy (01:03:56):

We’re at least [crosstalk 01:03:57].

Tom (01:03:57):

If these are [crosstalk 01:03:58] 200 years, man, we’ll have way better solutions.

Jimmy (01:04:01):

Everything that we’re making will last longer than I’m going to live and longer than anybody listening to this right now will live. So, I mean, that’s the guarantee that we provide basically.

Tom (01:04:11):

Jimmy, thank you so much for coming on, man. You’re an extremely passionate founder. I guarantee you’ll be on again soon to dive into more updates.

Jimmy (01:04:18):

Tom, hey, man, thanks so much for believing in us, for taking all the time to speak to us and understand what it is we’re building. I really appreciate that and having folks like you that believe in what we’re doing really matters a lot. So, thank you.

Tom (01:04:31):

I appreciate that, man. And shout out to Gmoney who introduced us. I really appreciate that. [crosstalk 01:04:35]

Jimmy (01:04:35):

Absolutely. G’s the man. Talk to you later.

Jul 28, 2021 | 67 minutes | Chain Reaction

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