Yan Liberman and Paul Burlage of Delphi Digital hosts the Ulysse, Gaspard and Antoine of ApWine to discuss how the project allows you to speculate on the evolution of the yield generated by different DeFi protocols.

Episode Highlights


Yan Liberman and Paul Burlage of Delphi Digital host Ulysse, Gaspard and Antoine of ApWine to discuss how the project allows you to speculate on the evolution of the yield generated by different DeFi protocols. ApWine also allows you to hedge your risk on your passive revenue, converting it into futures. Disclosure: Delphi Ventures is an investor in ApWine.

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Show Notes

(1:31) – (First Question) – Antoine’s Intro.

(2:16) – Gaspard’s Intro.

(2:37) – Ulysse’s Intro.

(3:05) – APWine’s Elevator Pitch.

(4:48) – How does APWine work / components.

(6:25) – APWine’s target.

(9:15) – Thoughts on Liquidity / envisioning the APY and AMM / plan to bootstrap the particular markets.

(14:00) – Tokenizing future yield on different products.

(22:12) – APWine’s Design / What’s different from APWine competitors.

(28:43) – APWine’s Token / functionality.

(33:40) – Future plans / integrations.

(40:31) – Thoughts on cross-chain or multi-chain plans.

(43:18) – Why an LBP.

(47:44) – Where to find APWine.


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Interview Transcript

Yan:

Awesome. All right everyone. Thanks for joining. Today we have the team from APWine here. So I’ll let them introduce themselves first.

Antoine:

Hello. I’m happy to be here. I’m Antoine Mouran. I’m a French student at EPFL in computer science. I’m a member of the Blockchain Student Association of the EPFL. I get to know the crypto in 2016, and I fell in love with it and with the ecosystem. And then as soon as I heard about DeFi I felt deeper in love, and I went all in with the community, especially the French community, but now it’s just a few friends, so no problem.

Gaspard:

Yeah, my name is Gaspard Peduzzi. I did the four years in computer science at EPFL in Lausanne as well. Been in crypto since many years working on small projects, did a little bit of research as well. And yeah, in APWine full-time now. And co-funded the project with Antoine and Ulysse in August.

Ulysse:

Hello everyone. My name is Ulysse. Before joining crypto six months ago, I was more of a gaming/UI kind of guy. I’ve studied computer science for three years at EPFL with Gaspard and Antoine and then graduated six months ago. That’s also the time where I joined Amazon as a software engineer. I worked there for a little bit and then just left my job to work full-time on APWine.

Yan:

Appreciate the intros. Love to hear what was the… I guess we can start with a summary of APWine and then what was the inspiration and how you guys came up with it.

Ulysse:

For sure. So APWine, to put it in simple words, is the protocol for yield tokenization on Ethereum. So the idea is that we have been seeing crazy APYs interests last summer. And we’re still seeing APYs with three digits, four digits. But there is no product yet to bet on that speculation, on that variation of APY. So what we allow you to do is deposit your assets on APWine and basically lock your assets to mint, future your tokens that you will be able to speculate on. So you will basically be able to speculate on the future yield.

Ulysse:

And the idea came… Long story short, we were drinking a glass of wine at EPFL shortly before graduation and before the exams were over and we just wanted to start a project in DeFi because of all the possibilities and all the endless capabilities of DeFi, we really wanted to also bring our stone to the ecosystem. So that’s when we started to think about projects and the idea for trading future yield just naturally came to us when we witnessed those crazy APYs. Now for the wine part, it was mostly a word play because we were having a glass of wine and we’re all French, all for France. So it just came obvious to us.

Gaspard:

Just told everyone that we were drinking during exams.

Ulysse:

At the end. Please don’t do it at the same time.

Yan:

Only at the end. No, absolutely. And I guess let’s dive into how the mechanics work, and what exactly are the components?

Ulysse:

Yeah, for sure. So the basic user flow of APWine, the first step is that you deposit your interest-bearing token. So your IBT’s on APWine. This can be aDAI, iFARM, anything that generates yield over time can be deposited on APWine. Now you want to deposit on a fixed time period. So if you want to deposit for one month, you can do that. You can also deposit for one year or anything that APWine supports. We have these things called futures. It’s a pair of an interest-bearing token, a platform and the time period. So let’s say you deposit aDAI on the one-month period on APWine. In exchange for that deposit, so basically locking your assets for one month, you get what we call FYTs, future yield tokens. These future yield tokens represent the yield that will be generated by your assets at the end of the period.

Ulysse :

So you’re free basically to sell them through the AMM, send them, do what you want with it. These are regular ERC-20 tokens. The specificity of these tokens is that the holder of the FYT can redeem the yield at expiration. When the future ends, when the period ends, so at the end of the month, you will be able to claim the FYTs and get the yield in return. That means that you can sell your FYTs, so basically sell your future yield, and whoever has that FYT can redeem the yield at the end. This is the basic user flow.

Yan:

Got it. And who do you imagine, I guess, would be some of the participants that would likely take advantage of this model and really be your power users in the beginning, at least?

Ulysse:

Right. So at the beginning, of course, we’re focusing on farmers, arbitrators, not only, but also it could be also people from outside the firewall, so people who want to basically hedge their risk but also speculators on that yield.

Yan:

Got it. What are going to be some of the starting tokens you’re launching with, and then do you envision this expanding, or do you see this more so having a lot of concentration of liquidity around a handful of popular pairs?

Gaspard:

Antoine, do you want to go?

Ulysse:

I think you can go, Gaspard, Antoine in muted.

Gaspard:

Yeah. So we started the Beta version, we had aDAI, yUSD and iFARM. For different reason, both in terms of what protocol [inaudible 00:07:48], which asset made sense to speculate needs, or even like… We went into other one asset with the high APY as well for Beta’s testing different dynamics. Which pool we released basically at the V1, and if you bought it you go to our website, the V1, we have some Alphas there already. But basically we started that way. We want to offer the user… I mean, we are basically answering community market demand, but we want to offer basically different product that would be interesting for our farmers. For example, with yUSD you’re speculating in something that would be interesting while going to some market cycle changes with rates and stablecoin.

Gaspard:

But with also protocol, with also tokens, you would be able to speculate on the efficiency or basically the protocol reports, for example, iFARMs, but you have a lot of token that work that way like in Sushiswap, Stake DAO, that kind of thing. So those are very interesting assets. And actually, something that is very… I mean, the core of what we want to do since the beginning is also speculating and governance that can, let’s say, [inaudible 00:09:09] easier, like you’ll be able to speculate on east to yours, that kind of thing. That would be very interesting for the users. Eventually we want to have not that many pool in that fragmented liquidity much, but we have a lot of integration coming up, and we’ll release new pool on a frequent basis. And certainly the community there, token holders and participants, the governance will be able to vault and listing. And that’s basically the way it will work.

Paul:

The topic of liquidity, how do you guys envision the APY and AMM evolving over time, as well as how are you planning to bootstrap the particular markets?

Antoine:

So our upcoming roadmap will begin with the V1 launch. We’ve some roll platforms and integrated. You can see them already on our teaser on our website. But what we are thinking about is maybe having a new product like tokenizing vested tokens. As if you, for example, invest in a private sale where tokens are vested, you could tokenize them. And when they are released people could redeem the tokenized vested tokens against the real tokens. So as an investor you would be able to sell upfront your vested tokens. Then we are going to integrate all the types of assets, for example, pool assets, so Uniswap, Balancer, Sushiswap assets. I mean, liquidity tokens.

Antoine:

So as the fee is generated by the liquidity and the trade would be approved inside of future yield tokens. Then we’d like to improve our exchange and to build new financial instruments. So on our world map we currently have leverage, so through margin trading of future yield tokens. So you would be able to short the yield or long the yield with higher leverage. We also have some ideas about some more complex financial instruments as options, and maybe interest swap. We’ve collateralized FYTs, which could it be swapped between security role or the FYTs depending on the user will. And we are also looking for a lot more exotic integrations. As for Stake DAO with special vaults like liquidation vaults like arbitrage vaults.

Antoine:

So you would be able to bet and speculate on the yield made by an arbitrage bot. We are so collaborating with other GAO about this one. You would also be able to get upfront proof of stake rewards. If we could tokenize on Ethereum or Sidechain or an AVM compatible blockchain proof of stake rewards. As, for example, you have some DOTs which are generating a yield you would be able to sell this yield upfront and get a loan from it, for example. You would see… Sorry. You would also be able to have a fully insured yield. So the collateral would be insured. The collateral would be stablecoin, or it will be option covered and [inaudible 00:13:54] fixed yield. So zero risk for the investor. And it’s basically free money.

Gaspard:

We might want a interview because basically Antoine [inaudible 00:14:10].

Yan:

No, that’s good.

Ulysse:

I think we were just a little bit destabilized, if I could say that. We were trying to follow very closely the question, so we were-

Paul:

Part of Alpha [leak 00:14:29] there, I think.

Ulysse:

Yeah. No, for sure. No, I think alpha leak is good.

Paul:

Yeah. I had a question on… So you mentioned tokenizing future yield on various different products whether it be vested tokens or more Proof-of-Stake tokens, right? How do you envision the pricing of those tokens working over time? So, say, if I’m the first market creator do I initiate a pool AMM of that particular market? What should go into my thinking in terms of pricing that AMM as well as how do you envision the price of a future yield token trending over time from start to maturity?

Gaspard:

So those are very relevant and interesting question where we spend quite much time to think about. So part of the answer can be found in the traditional finance world. So basically for the pricing of the future yield token, basically with the same expected yield at the expiration of the future, you would sell your expected yield with a premium. I mean a discount, basically, because you’re selling an asset that is locked for a defined amount of time. So eventually the price will rise progressively. And in term of market dynamic, the more you go in the period, the less entropy you have on the remaining year left to be realized. So that’s one thing. And what you said at the beginning, actually, at the very beginning of one period… So that’s the particular thing with future yield tokenization, is that at each new period you’ll have a new token. And so, especially in the AMM, you need to anticipate that to eventually have, let’s say, a continuous liquidity.

Gaspard:

You don’t want to have to restart from scratch at each new period and deposit again, that kind of mechanism. I mean, at least that’s what we thought about. And we designed an AMM where we have some price discovery mechanism so that at the same time is the liquidity provider experience there that doesn’t have to redeposit again, renew it again. And they can do that, but that’s one functionality. And at the same time the trader can have a better experience and trade FYTs right at the beginning where actually we would expect to have the more volume or the more speculation, the more entropy and the yield to be realized. So those are mechanism that we implemented so that at the same time we have a continuous liquidity and we will be able to fair pricing under the asset. But pricing is rarely something that is done in traditional finance, but then we know that we are in DeFi and the market may need to educate itself a little bit before we start to have a really stronger market-making dynamic there as well. That’s a challenge for sure.

Ulysse:

Just want to add that on that last aspect we’ve actually had many people from traditional finance come to us and say, “Hey guys, are you basically recreating future contracts from traditional finance?” And we said, “Yeah, we’re doing that. But also we’re allowing people to have new features that are not even envision-able in traditional finance.” For example, upfront yield, that is something that doesn’t exist in regular contracts. So that’s also what we bring on top of the traditional innovations.

Yan:

Yeah. No, absolutely. Like separating the yields like strips in the traditional finance with bonds. But I think it is really a useful element where the larger individual who is entitled to basically the bond aspect of this, which is the portion that accrues the yield. So the fact that they can hedge the interest rate risk. And I do think there’s a market for those that want to speculate on that interest rate risk and definitely a size where if you’re just using round numbers, if you have APY of, let’s say, 12% on an asset. And so you strip that out and basically it’s not adjusting for compounding, you’re getting about 1% a month.

Yan:

The idea is even if the 1% is insignificant that if those rates increase to, let’s say, 18%, now the individual who speculated on the interest rate actually gets 50% gain. So there is a material amount of gains essentially we had speculating on those interest rates and potentially it could be a different way to speculate on markets themselves. You have a direction that you think markets are going to go and an opinion on how demand for borrowing and lending will adjust for that. I think it definitely creates a really new avenue and another real useful building block for the space.

Ulysse:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yan:

It’s all pretty good.

Ulysse:

Actually trading yield can be very profitable if we look at the numbers that, for example, a big player like Aave has on aDAI. You can see APY is ranging from 5% to some base to 20% on some other base. So there is a huge amount of opportunity for arbitration here and profiting for speculators. But at the same time it’s a win-win situation because if you manage to sell your FYT it means that you’ve essentially hedged your risk. So that’s a win-win situation for both parties. I think that’s where the beauty of this future contract lies.

Gaspard:

If I may add something, I think that was something that we started to talk about in early excavation, but I think it would be very interesting to start to have this yield market because until now liquidity provider, we’re basically jumping from one platform to another just to take advantage of these high APYs. But eventually that is not sustainable for different players, both for fees, but even for just different players who don’t want to go from this risky pool, from one to another. And then eventually if on APWine we manage to have as much market-making as we want to have and need for the farmers to start to really sell their yield, hedge their risk and bet on a fixed price, I think that will drive the discussion about what makes this yield this high or this low and that kind of thing.

Gaspard:

I think people will start to realize that because, for example, that’s a really good discussion, but people that made a lot of gains in the last bull run basically now. And I think that is different from the last one in 2017. Now people start to say, “Yeah, but I will just convert that to stablecoins and take advantage of those high stablecoin APY.” But eventually because a lot of people might do that, this will change. And I just think that the market’s dynamic and the scarcity of some assets and that kind of thing, that’s a whole new level and a whole layer that, through APWine, we would eventually expose and take advantage of. And for the high APYs and the volatility, as long as DeFi is young we’ll have relativity because of the liquidity issues.

Gaspard:

But then in the future, betting and speculating on this future yield is definitely something that the traditional finance world is already doing so. Yeah. But eventually, as for AMM, we’ll have a much more significant price for future APY that you would see on a website where you don’t know if it’s spot rate like seven-day average, 30-day average, anything. So in some way we’d be an unchained oracle of APY at this point.

Yan:

Actually, yeah, that’s really interesting. And on that note can you go into the design and how you guys are thinking about that?

Gaspard:

Yeah. As I said earlier, at the beginning it works like a regular AMM. Basically, we have two token through the protocol that we want the liquidity provider and the trader and the farmer to be able to exchange, which are ownership tokens and future yield tokens. So we have a name for that. And then we have two major things to anticipate. One is that, as I said at the beginning, the price of this FYT has a premium at the beginning due to the expected yield and the fact that you’re basically buying an asset that is locked. So that is something to anticipate. Both the FYT and ownership token has a constantly rising price with the yield that is generating. And at the same time we have this price discovery mechanism that we implemented too, and we’ll release documentation very soon on that actually.

Gaspard:

But basically to make people able to start to speculate on what is the price for the next period and eventually help liquidity provider to renew the token in a dramatic way where we would have a new pool generating automatically. And that would avoid people to have to just stop at the end of the period and recreate a new pool. Starting with a low liquidity on the pool so people cannot trade and eventually people need to have liquidity, but not to get stuck with the slippage or any manipulation that you could put in between in that time. It works like a regular AMM. Then we wait in Paris for this price involving mechanism. I don’t have the specific time for that and FYT premium and the period of renewal.

Ulysse:

Yeah. On that aspect, that’s also very important about the APWine AMM coming up in the V1, as far as we’ve seen. But we’re also interested to see how competitors deal with this problem. But there is a problem where future yield tokens are tightly linked to a specific time period. If you are depositing on the month of March or May or June or whatever, your FYTs contain only the yield generated for that time period. So how do you deal with an AMM, so an asset pool, where tokens basically become not tradable anymore every month. So we’ve come up with the mechanism, that Gaspard described, which allows us and liquidity providers to just deposit their liquidity and forget about it. And so the FYTs are going to be automatically renewed every period so that liquidity providers can also increase their capital efficiency. So that’s also something very important about the APWine AMM coming up.

Yan:

Got it. Yeah. No, that’s really interesting, and excited to hear more. How are you guys thinking about the design differently than your competitors or things you’ve seen with them? I’d love to get your thoughts around all that.

Antoine:

So compared to the competitor, we haven’t exactly focused our comparison between the APY… Sorry the AMMs. But, we can tell the main differences between our protocols. So, for example, for Pendle they’re using an AMM using time decay which involve a price weight depending on the time. But it might be not as much as compose-able as our solution. But since we haven’t seen the product right now we can’t say anything. And, for example, we also heard a lot about Swivel Finance. So they are focused on interest swaps, so not exactly our core product. And so the biggest one that we heard a lot of, it’s Alchemix.

Antoine:

And so I came up with a definition of what we could do with APWine and what we can do with Alchemix. So what is Alchemix exactly? It’s like you can take a loan from a chosen amount between 0% to 50% of your collateral. But you don’t know and you never know when your loan will be reimbursed. On the other side, with APWine, you directly know when your loan will be reimbursed, but you can’t exactly choose the amount you’re borrowing. When you sell your future yield token it’s borrowing, and so it depends on the future yield token price.

Ulysse:

So essentially desperate if you do a yield because of how APWine works with the AMM. But again, because of APWine’s compose-ability, we’ve actually had a Beta right now that lasted for three months on Mainnet. And on that Beta, although it’s not the most convenient for Mainnet, we’ve had an order book exchange. And we can imagine a future where order book exchanges are becoming a new standard or at least usable on Mainnet. Maybe because of ETH 2.0, maybe because of sidechains. They are twos, I don’t know, but just sometime in the future where we can use order books exchanges again. You can be sure that you can get always the best price for that. In the meantime, you will use the AMM on APWine and obviously sell your FYT at the price of the markets.

Yan:

That makes sense though. And just to dive into the token element a little bit, I would love to talk through how you guys are thinking about the functionality and then we can dive into some of the other elements as well.

Ulysse:

Yeah, for sure. So the APWine token… Actually, we have Julien Bouteloup as our angel. He’s helped us a lot on the design and the tokenomics of APW as well. So we’ve been following since the beginning a model very similar to Curve. I like to mention it because it’s a model that has shown that it’s working. There was a beginning where people doubted it a little bit, but now it’s showing its strength. Curve is really a model where you need to see in the longterm. And that’s also where we see for APWine, in the longterm, because DeFi yield tokenization is something that’s going to become a standard and a DeFi building block, basically a primitive of DeFi. We’re here for the longterm. So the tokenomics are based mostly on Curve. There will be liquidity mining, liquidity incentives for the AMM because we need that liquidity for the protocol to work and to be liquid and flawless in the user experience. So that’s where we’re aiming at. There would be-

Yan:

[inaudible 00:31:31].

Ulysse:

If we’re going to be talking about the specific mechanisms for APW, there will be governance locking. So you will be able to lock your APW for a fixed duration of time and receive vested APW. So voting escrow APW in exchange, very similar to how Curve works. And that will give you voting power on the governance, but also rewards from the protocol, both from the protocol fees that APWine takes from all the yield that’s generated, but also from the AMM. There will be swapping fees and a small part of that will be reversed to vested APW holders.

Yan:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense and is certainly a great way to create longterm alignment. And I think it’s obviously very transparent, which is incredibly helpful and creates a lot of stability. So-

Ulysse:

Sure. And we’ve also seen there’s actually a high percentage of Curve tokens being locked in vaulting as per right now. And I think that’s something very beautiful. It’s something that all protocols should aim for. It’s the beauty of people believing in the project so much that they lock their tokens for years and years. And there’s even perpetual strategies for these CRV. So you perpetually renew your locking period on Curve. And I think that’s something really nice and that people can vault on the governance, and there’s so much governance vaults on Curve, it’s really a modeled follow. But of course we’ll bring in also our innovations to the table.

Yan:

Yeah. That makes sense. Are you planning on incentivizing individuals to tokenize their yield as well, aside from just the secondary market liquidity or the FYTs, which are the tokenize yield

Ulysse:

So that will be mainly for the AMM. The AMM is where we need most of the liquidity so that regular users, whether it be speculators or farmers, can either hedge their risk or get exposed to yield without having the necessary capital, so basically by yield. For these two users the middle ground is the AMM so we need that liquidity here. The liquidity incentives will be mostly for people who mint FYT and ownership tokens and provide to the AMM.

Yan:

That makes a lot of sense. You’re effectively incentivizing the same crowd in an indirect way, but a more useful way because you do the secondary market [inaudible 00:34:17], like you mentioned, is useful for both entities. So it makes the farming aspect really productive.

Ulysse:

Absolutely. So there will be both a secondary market for the yield, but also for the locked position. So you will be able to sell your locked position depending on the price of the market. So you may be selling your locked position at a small discount, but you can still get out of the protocol without having to wait another month, if you’ve sold your yield already. Antoine you were going to say.

Antoine:

And by doing so we solve the liquidity chicken and egg problem. So we can have an equilibrium with farmers who wanted to have upfront yield and enough liquidity on the AMM.

Yan:

Yeah. No, exactly. And then on top of that they lock up the farm tokens and are able to enhance their yield as well. So makes a lot of sense. I guess, in terms of some more future plans, what are you guys thinking as far as future integrations, and share as much as you want to. I’m sure some elements have to be kept under wraps, so it’s completely up to you guys.

Gaspard:

Yeah. So, I mean, they’re basically two access for improvement for the protocol. One is the future yield tokenization. For now we’re integrating interest-bringing token assets. But there a lot more way of generating yield in the DeFi ecosystem and more. So staking we have PoSToken that are very interesting as well. And which clearly generates other types of reward as well. I mean, you have yield that you have instantly like in Aave then eventually you’ll have locked again vested yield, that kind of thing, that we want to be able to tokenize having several future yield tokens. Selling your vested yield and Sushiswap, that kind of thing. And the other direction is more because APWine is a protocol to take an extra yield, but also a future yield marketplace, so there we need to improve different mechanisms in the AMM reintegrates order book mechanism, Hello, other thing like margin trading.

Gaspard:

But also, and that’s what Ulysse said earlier, we are quite in discussion with people that are working in traditional financial work because even if we had the idea of tokenizing future yield without having any idea to be transparent that was existing in a traditional financial world, it’s still very interesting to see what is existing there and what kind of instrument can we bring. So not only futures on yield, but options as well. I mean, other types of contract, different types of duration, I think more flexibility to jump from one to another or to combine both because that’s the beauty of DeFi, it’s like 3D, like a legal game to just plug two thing together and eventually it works, so it doesn’t per se. But that’s definitely one direction that we are exploring and want to pursue.

Yan:

Got it. No, that’s really interesting. And just trying to think through. So do you guys anticipate some of the more degen yields also being an option, or is that going to be a bit more difficult to get that secondary market liquidity you refer to, or maybe that’s a bit further down the line once you have the ability to use the more advanced AMM, or potentially even go down the order book route based on the ability to scale that?

Gaspard:

Define degen.

Yan:

That’s fair. Yeah. So obviously you have the stablecoin yields and even some other assets, but I guess there’s… Well there are two types of degen yields. On one, you have the yield farms that pop up and might last for a few months. And then also situations where, for example, Sushi’s moving to Matic and they offer pretty solid yields on some more standard assets. And I have another question afterwards, so yeah.

Ulysse:

Yeah. Everything is possible with APWine. First, that’s what I want to say. But also even if it’s possible, the liquidity needs to be there, right? So although it’s possible, what interesting challenge, and what’s interesting to see where the market will go is what the discount will the market price? So, for example, if you get a thousand percent APY on some degen websites, some shady, I don’t know, platform, it will be interesting to see how far are people going to go to get a short-term speculation on that yield.

Ulysse:

If you know what’s going to go down then you might ask the person selling you their FYT, “Yeah. Okay. I’m going to buy your FYT, but I’m going to buy them at a 50% discount.” So instead of buying the APY at 1000%, I’m going to buy it at 500%. And if it lasts for more than a month, then essentially I’m getting profits. And the other guy is also happy because they hedged their risk, although with a discount. So it’s interesting to see where this can also become a betting marketplace. You can bet on the evolution of yield through the exposure to that yield.

Yan:

Yeah. No, I think that’s really interesting in terms of now you have to factor in not just demand for the borrowing, but the price of the token that you are receiving the yield in. And so on that same vein, do you guys imagine you’re going to shift to yield on LP tokens as well as… Because right now it’s more so lending and borrowing. And so is there an LP element which obviously would fall a bit more into the degen side and in some situations, but I think in a lot of others there’s some pretty strong stable yields. And so then you have to speculate on volume and a host of other factors, which I think could get really interesting.

Gaspard:

Definitely. I mean, right from the beginning there was definitely one type of pool that the farmer is used to in the ecosystem and eventually we’re concerning market demand as well, even with the long-term plans with replicating traditional finance or that kind of thing. So we integrated interest-bearing token first because it was easier because it was more explicit in some ways as well. The complexity of having yields and the pool with different assets, that’s something where we have to make some decision, but is definitely in our roadmap. Both because that’s a very interesting asset to speculate a yield on, I mean, type of pool. But also because those are very much used and they generate types of yields that we think APWine will be able to tokenize where there are no market currently that is doing it. I was thinking the example of Sushiswap and the [inaudible 00:41:57]. And rewards then that’s definitely something that we want to integrate.

Ulysse:

Yeah. So that’s why the longterm vision for APWine is not only to tokenize future yield but basically tokenize any assets that increases or generates value in the future, and then bet on that generation of value. So it can be LP tokens or anything that generates some yield in DeFi.

Paul:

On that note, with a lot of the yield farms moving across to other chains like Matic or Binance Smart Chain, how do you guys see yourself positioning yourself for that type of movement? And do you guys have any cross-chain or multi-chain plans, or is that something that’s more further down the line?

Gaspard:

We leaked some information in your meme contest. Yeah, we definitely are talking with some sidechains for partnership there. I mean, that was something that was right at the beginning because at the end of the DeFi summer, when we still had crazy APYs and we still have, but Binance Smart Chain was getting really famous. And the thing is we’re following the community, we’re following the other protocols, that kind of thing. But we have to keep a long-term vision there. And we think some sidechain showed some maturity and some protocols choose to deploy themselves as well there. And that’s definitely a direction that we will take as well.

Gaspard:

I mean, there’re two different things, right? Like at the same time we will deploy the protocol inside chains where we see long term and we see that the ecosystem is moving there as well. And eventually answering marketing community demands, we’d like to build bridges or find ways of speculating in yield, maybe more degens on sidechain where it can be something more temporary. But then eventually, yes. And that leads to the previous question actually like, do we want to integrate a degens here? Then I asked, “What is the degen?” Because at the same time isn’t 50% per year quite nice already? And that’s something that we have in the iFARM pool that we have. But for sure we’ll have some experimental crazy tokens and pools, but as Ulysse said, we don’t want to fragment the liquidity too much, and we need to find the right ones that makes sense to speculate.

Ulysse:

Yeah. And just want to add that the focus of our team when we develop the protocol, when we develop the interface and taking all the feedback from the community is not only that it works, but that also it’s easy to use and convenient to use. And so as we’ve seen recently, L1 has become not so convenient to use for some people, which is understandable. And so that’s why our main focus is on usability and user experience. So this is why we’re also considering and working on sidechains, because who wants to pay a hundred dollars to bet on $10 of yield?

Yan:

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It definitely gets prohibitive. And I guess in terms of launch plans, I know you guys are doing an LBP which this will likely air since that’s starting tomorrow, this will be released afterwards, but just to comment on why you’re going that route as well as potential airdrop and the thought process around that.

Ulysse:

Yeah, for sure. Just to complete that last question, the first point is the airdrop. As I said before, our focus is on user experience, and so we’ve had… We didn’t burn any steps. We really wanted to go…. The project started in August, that’s a long way for DeFi. But that’s because we were iterating over the protocol versions. We’ve had three versions so far. So there was the two Alphas, which was in 2020, and then we’ve had the Beta on Mainnet, which is currently live but ended. And then we’re going to have the V1 launch. During these three… Actually these two versions that we’ve had, there was lots of community feedback on the protocol, on the interface. So that gave us time to iterate and make the best experience possible. That’s also why we wanted to reward people who participated in improving the protocol. And so that’s why we decided to reward them with an airdrop coming after launch. And guess we’re going to elaborate on the LBP.

Antoine:

So about the LBP. So we saw that a lot more protocols were using it, and we wanted to have a fair price for the community and a new quality for all the community investors to be able to go in, get some tokens, be able to hold them and then stake them. So LBP was like a new choice.

Ulysse:

Yeah. It’s very important to us that whatever we decide to do the market decides whether it’s good or bad, what we do, what APWine does. So that’s why the LBP with the price discovery mechanism being versed Dutch auction basically seemed very obvious to us so that the market, if they just feel like APWine is not worth it, they could decide to not buy and make the price drop over 48 hours. We obviously don’t expect that and we don’t want that. But we know that the community is going to be supportive and see and share our vision of the project. But at least we gave them a chance to express their feedback on that aspect. So we don’t want to force any price. That seemed like the obvious mechanism.

Gaspard:

I mean, haters going to hate, but at least, as my friend said, this is a good and well better tested mechanism. So it was a no brainer for us.

Yan:

Yeah. No, agreed. We’re certainly big fans. And think at the moment it’s the best way to allow for an equitable distribution that allows for some comfortable level of price discovery, avoids sniping and a lot of the other issues from previous distributions. So, yeah, we’re definitely big fans of that.

Ulysse:

For sure. There was someone who asked some time ago in the chat, “What if someone comes and just buys the entire supply of APWine at the beginning of the LBP?” And I just answered, “Well, this guy is someone would just get majestically wrecked.” And so obviously we’re not going to see that because no one will do that. But that’s what would happen. So it would be fair for the community if someone tries to be sneaky or smarter than everyone else, they would just get wrecked. And this is what happens most of the time with Uniswap regular pools. Unfortunately it’s not really made for token launches. So we have witnessed lots of projects getting a kick at the beginning by a bot or some speculator.

Yan:

Yeah. No, the funny thing is you can inform everyone how it works, but there’s always going to be someone who’s not really paying attention. And each time you see spikes in the beginning and say, “That guy is not happy after this.”

Ulysse:

True.

Yan:

Absolutely. But there’s not much you can do about that. We really appreciate the time, guys. Please let everyone know where they can find out more about the project, more about you guys, everything along those lines.

Ulysse:

For sure. So the APWine project has multiple communications channels. We have a telegram and a discord group. You can reach us out anytime here, if you have any questions on the protocol, how to use the interface and so on. The main homepage is on apwine.fi. Currently you can also see a teaser for the V1, it’s live on app.apwine.fi. And you can see some of the integrations coming up, wink, wink.

Yan:

Thanks a lot, guys. Really appreciate you joining and teaching everyone about APWine. This is going to be a good one.

Ulysse:

Thank you so much, guys.

Paul:

Thank you very much.

Gaspard:

Thanks guys.

Antoine:

Thank you.

Yan:

Take care.

Ulysse:

Take care.

Gaspard:

Take care.

Jun 10, 2021 | 49 minutes | Chain Reaction

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